Radiation for R0?

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  • #65985
    2000miler
    Spectator

    Thanks again Eli. I checked the NCCN Guidelines Version 2.2012, Extra-2. It states “Consider fluoropyrimidine chemoradiation {f} (brachytherapy or external beam) followed by additional fluoropyrimidine or gemcitabine chemotherapy or Fluoropyrimidine based or gemcitabine based chemotherapy for positive regional lymph nodes {h}” I don’t know how to interpret that statement. Does consider apply to both part. As written it can be interpreted to read that “consider” doesn’t apply to the chemotherapy for positive regional lymph nodes and that “consider” only applies to the combination chemoradiation and chemotherapy for R1 or R2 or carcinoma in situ at margin, or positive regional nodes.

    The paper you linked to, “Adjuvant treatment in biliary tract cancer: To treat or not to treat?” states the following under Guidelines and Current Clinical Practice. “The National Comprehensive Cancer Network (NCCN) guidelines recommend only observation or adjuvant CRT with concomitant fluoropyrimidine for patients with R0 margins or negative lymph nodes and adjuvant therapy with concurrent 5-fluorouracil-based CRT followed or not by additional fluoropyrimidine or gemcitabin-based regimens in patients with R1 margins or metastic lymph nodes.” So it appears here that the NCCN is recommending CRT with or without chemo for positive lymph nodes.

    Also, it appears that the recommendation is to do radiation followed by chemo, whereas what the Ocshner oncologist proposes is to do chemo followed by radiation.

    All very confusing to me.

    Susie, thank you for your comments. It makes me wonder about second and additional opinions. I first ran into this when the Ochsner surgeon and his cancer board said to operate and the Southwest Medical Center and their cancer board said not to operate. We ended up getting a third opinion from a Baylor surgeon, who was the Ochsner’s surgeon’s mentor, and he said to operate, which I expected because of the mentor relationship. When we first met the Ochsner oncologist, she said that Ochsner was agressive and then rattled off about 5 other cancer centers which were either agressive or not. I kind of got the idea that this is tied in with their “do no harm” vow. The agressive doctors give me the impression that they will try almost anything to extend your life, even if what they are trying has not been statistically proven, whereas the non-agressive doctors don’t seem to want to take the chance that they may cause you harm.

    As you say, in the end, it’s a personal choice, but I, like you, would prefer to get as much adjuvant therapy for my wife as they will give her.

    Bruce

    #65984
    wallsm1
    Spectator

    Hi Bruce.

    I had intrahepatic cc with my tumor removed 1 1/2 years ago. I was R0, negative lymph nodes and clean margin, though one margin was close.
    I got 3 cycles gem/cis, 6 wks chemo radiation with Xeloda, 3 more cycles gem/cis.
    I went to 3 different hospitals for opinions on the radiation.
    University of Pittsburgh said chemo only, nothing to radiate. (this is where I had my surgery)
    Oregon Health and Science at first said only chemo radiation but then went to tumor board and said chemo + chemo radiation. (this is where I live and got the chemo and radiation)
    Mayo said chemo and they are not currently recommending radiation for R0 patients, but they are not necessarily opposed to it and if I wanted to proceed with it, they understood because of the close margin. ( I just went there for another opinion)
    Mayo was able to provide me with one study where radiation showed some benefit and another study where it showed no benefit.
    I think it is a personal choice. There is not much data to show any benefit and no benefit was promised to me.
    But, the other thing to consider is there are not many R0 patients even out there to study.
    I was 31 at diagnosis and otherwise healthy, so I was all for getting as much adjuvant therapy as they would give me.
    It is a difficult decision and I wish you the best.
    If you have any questions about my radiation experience, please feel free to ask.
    Maybe another opinion will help you make the decision?

    take care,
    Susie

    #65983
    Eli
    Spectator

    Bruce, I keep finding more reading material for you.

    You may want to review two recent papers that I linked in this thread:

    Adjuvant treatment in biliary tract cancer: To treat or not to treat?
    http://www.cholangiocarcinoma.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=8426

    See the links in the first and the last posts.

    #65982
    Eli
    Spectator

    Bruce, one more thing:

    If you want to read the discussion behind NCCN recommendations, see slides 59 – 62.

    #65981
    Eli
    Spectator

    Yes, you are correct.

    Keep in mind, the evidence to recommend or not recommend chemo/radiation is weak. CC is a rare cancer, so large randomized Phase 3 clinical trials are difficult to conduct. Most CC trials are small and non-randomized (aka Phase 2 trials). The evidence that comes out of such studies is not conclusive.

    Also keep in mind, your wife had a positive lymph node. That’s a significant risk factor. Take a look at the similar slide for extrahepatic cholangiocarcinoma (Slide #24, EXTRA-2). The patients with positive lymph nodes follow the same path as patients with R1/R2 margins. But note the wording. They say Consider chemoradiation or chemotherapy, rather than Do.

    #65980
    2000miler
    Spectator

    Thanks Eli. It appears the NCCN Guidelines don’t even recommend chemo for an R0 resection unless it is in a clinical trial. Am I interpreting that correctly?

    Bruce

    #65979
    Eli
    Spectator

    No, they would not. They radiate the area surrounding the tumor.

    EDIT:

    If you want to read medical papers on the subject, search PubMed database. It indexes all articles published in the peer-reviewed medical journals.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

    EDIT 2:

    But…

    NCCN Guidelines are based on the published medical papers. The expert panel that writes the Guidelines reviews all new papers twice a year or so. Whenever new evidence comes out, they update the Guidelines.

    #65978
    2000miler
    Spectator

    Thanks Eli. According to the paper “Intrahepatic Cholangiocarcinom: resectability, recurrence pattern, and outcomes,” Journal of the American College of Surgeons, v193, n4, pp 384-391, Oct. 2001, which I found from a link on one of these boards, recurrence in 20 patients, was identified as liver (14), retroperitoneal or hilar nodes (4), lung (4), and bone (2). I only have the abstract for the paper and it didn’t break down the recurrences into how many were R0 and other factors, but the fact that it would show up in the lungs and bone made me wonder if they would radiate those also.

    Bruce

    #65977
    Eli
    Spectator

    Now that I thought about it a bit more, I remember another member who received radiation after a clean resection. That’s two in the last year, just going by memory.

    As to what they radiate:

    Parts of liver, bile ducts, the surrounding lymph nodes.

    #65976
    Eli
    Spectator

    Hi Bruce,

    NCCN Hepatobiliary Cancers Guidelines (the current standard of care in the US) do not recommend radiation for R0 margins.

    You need to register for a free account to see the guidelines.

    See slide #22 (INTRA-2)
    http://www.nccn.org/professionals/physician_gls/pdf/hepatobiliary.pdf

    However, some oncologists take more aggressive approach. This is not entirely unreasonable, given high recurrence rate after resection.

    I’ve been on this board for about a year. Off the top of my head, I recall one other patient who received radiation after R0/N0 resection.

    I strongly recommend that you seek 2nd and 3rd opinions about this.

    Best wishes,
    Eli

    #7538
    2000miler
    Spectator

    My wife was resected for Intrahepatic CC on 9/12 with great results. 72% of the liver with a 6.4 cm. tumor and a single hilar lymph node with metastatic carcinoma was removed. The results were great, margins clear, and 6 other lymph nodes benign, classified R0.

    We met with the Ochsner oncologist Monday and she recommended the GemCis regiment, which we expected, but she also stated that radiation may be used after around 4 months of chemo. We did not expect this since my wife’s surgeon said that radiation would not be necessary.

    Is radiation normal for this type of CC with these resection results and if so, what do they radiate?

    Bruce Baird

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